[中][ENG] 與芭蕾巨星朱里奧．波卡共舞 An Interview with Julio Bocca: You Don’t Dance Alone

採訪 Interview: 羅佳娜 Natasha Rogai; 拍攝、剪接 Video Shooting and editing: Jason Ma and Eric Hong; 翻譯Translation: Raven Ching 特別嗚謝香港芭蕾舞團和波卡先生 Special Thanks to Hong Kong Ballet and Mr. Bocca

對於舞評家、芭蕾舞愛好者與舞者，朱里奧．波卡是優秀得非言語能形容的藝術家。作為同輩中最出色的舞者之一，朱里奧．波卡被形容為「天生的舞者」、「彷彿他的靈魂依靠著舞蹈」。在故鄉阿根廷，他是國家級偶像，地位不下於馬勒當拿（Maradona）或美斯（Messi），走在街上無一次不被蜂擁包圍。今年十月，他來到香港，協助指導香港芭蕾舞團（港芭）的《海盜》，並與《舞蹈手札》對談關於他非凡的舞蹈事業，古典芭蕾的前景以及與港芭的合作。

Critics, ballet lovers, and fellow artists run out of superlatives when they talk about Julio Bocca. One of the greatest dancers of his generation, he’s been described as “born to dance” and dancing “as if his soul depended on it”. In his native Argentina, he’s a national idol on a par with the likes of Maradona or Messi and can’t walk down the street without being mobbed. He was here in October to help coach Hong Kong Ballet (HKB) in Le Corsaire and dancejournal/hk talked to him about his extraordinary career, the future of classical ballet and working with HKB.

朱里奧．波卡Julio Bocca; 圖片由受訪者提供Photo provided by interviewee

舞台上，波卡的吸引力與耀眼的舞藝享負盛名；也因此，與他會面時，難免會因他的斯文細語而驚訝，毫無架子的他讓人耳目清新，實在與他超級巨星的地位不相稱。整個訪問期間，他的態度誠懇如溫暖和煦的陽光，他說：「我總是誠實的！」你都會相信他。

On stage, Bocca was renowned for his magnetism and spectacular bravura dancing, so it’s a surprise to find how quiet and soft-spoken he is in person, with a refreshing lack of ego that belies his superstar status. Throughout the interview, his warmth is engaging and his sincerity shines through - when he says “I’m always honest!” you believe him.

波卡生於布宜諾斯艾利斯（Buenos Aires）一個帶著意大利血統、 熱衷於藝術的家庭。他的母親是一位舞蹈老師，而他就在四歲開始跳舞：「只是在舞室裡四處玩耍」。魯道夫．紐瑞耶夫的《胡桃夾子》讓他愛上芭蕾，雖然五歲的波卡更喜歡的角色是大鼠王。「我記不起紐瑞耶夫，只記得那老鼠！」七歲時，他清楚自己想跳舞（「一聽到音樂我的身體便開始動了」），他的母親為他報讀了國家芭蕾舞學院。在那裡，他的老師安東尼奧．圖約爾（Antonio Truyol）則建議他同時入讀一般不接受十歲以下學生的科隆劇院學校。於是，在八歲那年，「早上我在國家芭蕾舞學院上課，下午就在正常學校讀書，晚間再到科隆劇院學校……我十分幸運，因為我的母親和家庭從沒有強逼我跳舞，我是隨自己心意去做的。」

Bocca was born in Buenos Aires, into a family of Italian origin with a passion for the arts. His mother was a dance teacher and he started dancing aged four “just playing around, going into the studio”. He fell in love with ballet after seeing The Nutcracker with Rudolf Nureyev, although the five year old Bocca was more impressed by the Rat King “I don’t remember [Nureyev]. I just remember the rat!” By the age of seven, he knew that he wanted to dance (“I just listened to music and my body started moving.”). His mother enrolled him at the National Ballet School where his teacher, Antonio Truyol, suggested he also attend the school of the Teatro Colón, even though pupils under ten weren’t normally accepted there. So at eight years old, “…in the morning I went to the National Ballet School, in the afternoon to regular school and in the evening the Teatro Colón… I was very lucky because my mother, my family never pushed me to do it – it just came out from my heart.”

波卡是貨真價實的神童，於十四歲就早早開始了職業生涯，他從委內瑞拉的特雷莎卡雷尼奧劇院（Teresa Carreño Theatre）獲得首份專業合約。對於這年輕男孩來說，要離家在外為自己打點一切，是一個重大的挑戰。「我有了第一個自己的住宅單位，為自己付帳單：自來水、電力、煮飯、清潔—還要工作！不過，這是我自己的決定，而我知道我的家人在支持我。」

A true prodigy, Bocca’s professional career also started early - at 14 he got his first professional contract, at the Teresa Carreño theatre in Venezuela. It was a major challenge for such a young boy to fend for himself far from home: “I was having my first apartment, having to pay the bills – light, water – cook, clean… AND work! But it was my own decision and I knew my family was there to support me.”

朱里奧．波卡Julio Bocca; 圖片由受訪者提供Photo provided by interviewee

一年後，波卡獲邀往里約熱內盧的市立劇院擔任客席藝術家，他第一次擔任主角：費德烈．艾斯頓（Frederick Ashton）作品《女大不中留》中的哥拉斯（Colas）。三年下來，他踏足阿根廷、委內瑞拉和巴西三地的舞台，直至莫斯科國際芭蕾舞大賽中的金獎為他的生命帶來轉變。「巴里殊尼哥夫（Baryshnikov）致電給我和我的經理人，問我是否願意擔任美國芭蕾舞劇院的首席舞蹈員。我當然是說『好啊！好啊！好啊！』」

A year later, Bocca was invited to appear as a guest artist at the Theatro Municipal do Rio de Janeiro, where he danced his first principal role: Colas in Frederick Ashton’s La Fille Mal Gardée. After three years appearing in Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil, life changed when he won the Gold Medal at the Moscow International Ballet Competition. “Baryshnikov called me, called my manager, and they asked me if I wanted to be a principal dancer with American Ballet Theatre (ABT). So of course I said “Yes – yes, YES!”

波卡在1986至2006年間一直擔任美國芭蕾舞劇院的首席舞蹈員，直至他在三十九歲時從經典的角色退下來。「我隨心在頂峯處停下腳步。」這二十年間，他在國際頂尖舞團間亮相，包括巴黎歌劇院芭蕾舞團，英國皇家芭蕾舞團，米蘭斯卡拉歌劇院芭蕾舞團（La Scala），丹麥皇家芭蕾舞團，莫斯科大劇院芭蕾舞劇團及聖彼得堡基洛夫芭蕾舞團（Kirov）。能夠身列一個黃金年代之末，「紐瑞耶夫、巴里殊尼哥夫、瑪卡洛娃（Makarova）、卡拉．弗拉奇（Carla Fracci）、艾麗西亞．阿隆索（Alicia Alonso）……能夠與這些偉大的舞者共享舞台，我受益殊深。」

Bocca was a principal with ABT from 1986 to 2006, when he retired from classical roles aged 39 – “I stopped when I wanted, at the top”. During those 20 years, he also appeared in a roll-call of the world’s top companies, among them the Paris Opera, Royal Ballet, La Scala, Royal Danish Ballet, the Bolshoi, and the Kirov. He feels fortunate to have been part of the ending of a golden era, “Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Makarova, Carla Fracci, Alicia Alonso... I shared the stage with all those great dancers, so I learned so much.”

“In ballet, the arts, you need to communicate, to be with everybody, you need to dance with your partner and you have to know your partner, trust them.”

波卡不僅聞名於他卓越閃耀的舞藝，他同樣是公認非凡的好拍檔，就如《Dance Magazine》所讚謂，「...結合激情與豪邁，他讓人無從抗拒。」提到曾與他合作的芭蕾舞女芭蕾舞員，他的臉亮起來－她們包括：Cynthia Harvey, Cynthia Gregory, Monique Loudières, Noëlla Pontois and Lyudmila Semenyaka 。波卡與Nina Ananiashvili和Alessandra Ferri 的關係特別深厚，他形容「在台上，我們總能融為一體。」對波卡而言，古典芭蕾中男舞蹈員最好的一個傳統是讓女舞蹈員在雙人舞中優先。「她必須要漂亮，我不需要漂亮。我心常銘記：她必須美麗而自在。我之後還有獨舞、尾聲段、或是其他表演時間，我認為這點十分重要。」

Although famed for his dazzling virtuosity, Bocca was equally known as an exceptional partner, distinguished by what Dance Magazine called “…his irresistible combination of passion and gallantry”. His face lights up when he talks about the ballerinas he danced with - Cynthia Harvey, Cynthia Gregory, Monique Loudières, Noëlla Pontois, and Lyudmila Semenyaka among them. Especially close partnerships were forged with Nina Ananiashvili and Alessandra Ferri, of whom he says touchingly “we were always one person on the stage”. In the best tradition of the classical male dancer, when partnering, for Bocca the ballerina comes first: “She has to look beautiful. I don’t need to look beautiful. That was always in my mind – she has to look great and be comfortable. I have my time later – I have my solo, coda, whatever – and I think that’s very important.”

總體來說，舞者應謹記著，「當你在跳舞時，你不是一個人在跳舞，你是與整個舞團一起......那是整個舞台、整個舞團、技術人員、所有人，這不只是一場獨舞表演。」《海盜》有個特色，就是角色阿里擁有最華麗的獨舞，而波卡永遠選擇飾演較多戲劇和雙人舞的角色干萊德。（儘管如此，他仍笑說：「當然是阿里，他能獨攬全場掌聲！」）

In general, dancers should remember that “…when you’re dancing, you don’t dance alone, you dance with the whole company… It’s the whole stage, the whole company, the technical crew, everybody – it’s not just a solo performance.” It’s characteristic that in Le Corsaire, while it’s Ali who gets the most spectacular solos, Bocca always chose to dance Conrad, a role which involves more acting and partnering (even though, as he says with a laugh: “Of course Ali – he takes all the applause!”).

“I’m still open to learn – still young, I think!”

攝Photo: Leo Barizzoni

不少人慨嘆舞者短暫的職業生涯。不過，波卡對此抱相反看法：「...我們十分幸運，作為舞者，我們能擁有兩段事業。這不是很多人能做到。因為我們早早開始，我們也早早完結；而現在，四十歲叫年輕。也因此，你可以開展新工作。」波卡自己，就在舞者這個「美麗事業」完結後，開始了導演和教師的生涯。「我仍能敞開心扉學習。我覺得我仍年輕！」

While it’s common to lament the shortness of a dancer’s career, Bocca takes the opposite view: “…we are very lucky, as dancers, because we can have two careers. That’s something not many people can do. Because we start young, we finish young and now, at 40, you are young. So you can begin something new.” In his own case, after “a beautiful career” as a dancer, he began a new one as a director and teacher. “I’m still open to learn – still young, I think!”

1990年，波卡成立自己的舞團阿根廷芭蕾舞團，首次擔任藝術總監。豐富多元的劇目，展現了阿根廷的標誌探戈、現代舞、爵士舞和芭蕾舞，為年輕的阿根廷舞者開創事業，包括埃曼．科尼荷（Herman Cornejo）等明日新星。2010年，波卡獲委任為烏拉圭索德爾國家芭蕾舞團（烏拉圭的國家芭蕾舞團）的藝術總監。在任期間，他的工作令舞團提昇至國際水平，嬴得許多讚賞，他亦對此感到自豪。然而，與行政職務與複雜的南美式官僚體系交涉了7年後，他決定從管理的角色退下。「我喜愛導演工作，但更熱愛指導，與舞者在一起。」

Bocca first became an artistic director in 1990, when he started his own company, Ballet Argentino. A varied repertoire showcased Argentina’s iconic tango alongside contemporary dance, jazz, and ballet, and launched the careers of young Argentinian dancers including future stars like Herman Cornejo. In 2010 Bocca was appointed AD of Ballet Nacional Sodre, Uruguay’s national ballet company. He won much praise for his work in raising the company to international level and is proud of what he achieved. However, after seven years of dealing with administrative duties and the labyrinthine nature of South American bureaucracy, he has decided to step down from a management role. “I love to direct, but I really love more to be a coach and to be with the dancers.”

攝Photo: Leo Barizzoni

以波卡所見，與今天的年輕舞者合作，最大的挑戰是要令他們100％能量、專注力和紀律，讓他們享受當下的訓練和工作。在他的年代，環境一般都比較艱難，「...但無論如何，我們都在跳舞。現在，環境比以前好，也因此他們想要更多。這是在所難免的。不過這就是挑戰所在，要讓他們明瞭，為何這些素質是重要，並讓他們享受其中。」另一個問題是，在這個智能手機世代，舞者常常會過於專注自我。「芭蕾作為藝術，需要的是溝通，和眾人同在，你要與你的拍檔共舞，要理解對方，並信任他們。」

Working with today’s young dancers, Bocca says one of the big challenges is to find ways to get them to put in “100% energy and concentration and discipline, and to enjoy what they’re doing.” In his generation, conditions were often difficult, but “… no matter what, we danced. Now everything is [better] – so they want more. It’s understandable. But that’s the challenge, for them to understand how important it is to have these things and try to enjoy it.” Another problem is that in the age of the smart phone, dancers are too inwardly focused whereas “in ballet, the arts, you need to communicate, to be with everybody, you need to dance with your partner and you have to know your partner, trust them.”

波卡亦關注今天「重技輕藝」的趨勢。「比起十二個與我毫無感通的旋轉，我寧願只見到六個富有美感的旋轉；我更希望見到六個向我說故事的旋轉，能觸動我的（深呼吸）情感。」然而，他確切地指出，教師的責任，是讓舞者了解甚麼才是最重要。「不只是舞者需要聆聽、嘗試練習，亦取決於教師。如果我們放任他們，隨便行事，這不是他們的錯，這是我們的錯。」向新世代傳達知息並不容易，他們毫不遲疑向權威提出疑問。「若我的老師叫我做一件事，我會照做。現在，這變成一場討論...」但波卡感覺到，舞者是誠心欣賞老師的付出。「他們只是需要更多時間去欣賞。」

Bocca shares the concern that nowadays there’s a tendency to favour athleticism over artistry. “I prefer to see six beautiful pirouettes than 12 that say nothing to me. I prefer to see six pirouettes that tell me a story, that make me [draws in a deep breath] emotional.” However, he says firmly that it’s the role of teachers to make dancers understand what’s important. “It’s not only the dancers who have to listen and try to practice, it all depends on the teachers. If we let them to do whatever they want, it’s not their fault – it’s our fault. That’s why we are here.” It isn’t always easy to get the message through to a new generation that doesn’t hesitate to question authority “if [my teacher] said something, I did it. Now it’s a discussion…” but Bocca feels that the dancers do appreciate what their teachers have to give “they just take a little more time to appreciate it.”

“It’s nice when the dancers are hungry for more. That’s the best reward a teacher can get.”

攝Photo: Leo Barizzoni

在這個急速、快轉的世紀，波卡注意到，傳統版本的古典芭蕾舞或者是太長，長得令觀眾（以及藝術家）難以投入。他堅信發展出時間較短、節奏較快的節目，是保持這些偉大作品歷久不衰的方法。「...不失原意、精髓、質感、歷史、風格，只是簡短一些......我可以肯定，有些人對此會投訴，但很多年輕舞者和觀眾會欣賞的。」安娜瑪麗．賀姆斯（Anna-Marie Holmes）版本的《海盜》是這個取向的主要例子，他把此版本添加進烏拉圭國家芭蕾舞團的劇目，亦正協助在港上演此版本的排練。「非常短的兩幕，生動非常......在於我，這是最好的《海盜》。」

In this high-speed, fast-forward era, Bocca is aware that traditional versions of classical ballets may be too long to keep audiences (and artists) engaged. He’s a firm believer that developing shorter, faster-paced productions is the way to keep these great works alive: “…not to lose the sense, the excellence, the quality, the history, the style – but make it short… I’m sure some people will complain about this, but a lot of young dancers and young audiences will appreciate it.” Anna-Marie Holmes’ Le Corsaire, which he has added to the repertoire in Uruguay and is in Hong Kong to help stage, is a prime example of this approach. “Two very short acts, very lively… For me, it’s the best Corsaire.”

關於與港芭合作，「我與這個舞團合作愉快。我感受到，他們渴求更多。我糾正他們，而第二天你就會見到他們正努力修正—他們記得你所說的。這不是常常發生的！」他對於舞者的努力十分深刻，他在烏拉圭的舞團有65位舞者，這裡只有46位。這裡的舞者今天練一個角色，明天就練另一個角色，對此他覺得非常「驚嘆」。他亦欣賞他們的團隊精神，可見他們之間正在良性競爭。「他們想表現自己，但不是『看，我能做得比你好』的態勢，而是『我做到這個，來看看你能做到什麼』。這是良好的競爭。」

As for working with HKB, “I feel very happy with the company. I feel that they are hungry for more. And it’s so nice to be sitting there and giving them corrections and the next day you can see that they’re working on it – they remember. It’s not very often that happens!” He’s impressed by how hard the dancers work – his company in Uruguay has 65 dancers, here there are just 46 and he finds it “amazing” to see dancers doing one role one day, another the next. He also appreciates their team spirit and the fact that they’re competitive in a healthy way: “They want to show what they can do, but it’s not like 'I can do it better than you', it’s like 'look, I can do this, let’s see what you can do.' In a good way.”

他樂於未來再訪香港。「我實在很欣賞這裡，十分好。舞者渴求更多，作為老師，這就是最佳的獎勵。」

He would be happy to come back to Hong Kong. “I really appreciate it here, it’s very nice – and it’s nice when the dancers are hungry for more. That’s the best reward a teacher can get.”