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[中][ENG] 訪談Yoann Bourgeois <懸止點 - 流淌於『絕對當下』的詩人> A Conversation with Yoann Bourgeois <Point

Yoann Bourgeois; 照片由ArtisTre提供 Photo provided by ArtisTree

訪談Yoann Bourgeois

A Conversation with Yoann Bourgeois

懸止點 - 流淌於『絕對當下』的詩人

Point of Suspension - the Poet Flowing in the “Absolute Present”

Cathy Lau Sau Kwan

翻譯 Translation: Pomny Chu

在紛亂的時刻,法國編舞家Yoann Bourgeois在太古坊大堂及ArtisTree上演了《Tentative Approaches to a Point of Suspension》。我和《舞蹈手札》的另外兩位編輯觀看了最後一場,完場後和Bourgeois及替他翻譯的舞者Marie Vaudin談了關於他們的到訪、創作、美學及哲學。

In time of unrest, the French choreographer Yoann Bourgeois performed Tentative Approaches to a Point of Suspension at the lobby of Taikoo Place and at ArtisTree. Alongside the other two editors of dance journal/hk, I watched the last performance and met with him and Marie Vaudin after the show, who was also the dancer of the performance and helped us with translation throughout the interview. We talked about their visit to Hong Kong, their choreography, aesthetics and philosophy.


Looking at the present in the hustle and bustle

這是Bourgeois 和他的團隊第一次到香港及亞洲演出。見面他便逗趣地分享初到埗的第一印象:每個路人都手拿一部、甚至兩部電話,準確地穿插在擠擁的街頭。他和他的團隊當下相視一會,心裏想要勒住這群城市人專注的眼球肯定難若登天;亦因為這個第一印象,觀眾在觀賞演出時的全神貫注及投入令他吃驚。

It was the first time that Bourgeois and his team performed in Hong Kong and Asia. He humorously recalled his first impression of the city when he arrived: everyone on the street held a phone in their hands, some even had two, weaving their ways through the crowds with no deviations. At that moment, Bourgeois and his team looked at each other and could not help thinking how hard it would be to catch the attention of these city dwellers. Also for this impression, he was surprised about the audience's complete focus and devotion at his performance later.

是次演出Bourgeois 和他的團隊先在商業大廈的公共空間演出兩個段落,然後引領觀衆移步到黑盒劇場再演兩個段落。Bourgeois形容在行人如潮湧的鰂魚涌演出非常有趣,縱使城市的發展和步伐如雷,在建築物堆疊的中心,我們卻見證住大自然與城市彼此觸碰,並感受大自然的親密接觸。筆者所見,他正好運用了這個場景, 使過路的群眾不經意地駐足 。Marie亦分享她的演出狀態 :「我們嘗試認識周遭的人。今天是周末下午的場次,有時則在中午或晚上演出,不同時份的觀眾群眾及其狀態截然不同,而在公共場所及黑盒劇院的覺察也全然不同。對我們而言,最重要的不是編排,而是與觀眾的關係,令我們及他們共同融入表演。」而訪前的演出亦貫徹地展現這理念,Marie在公共空間演出時傾身倒向一位向她舉機拍攝的觀眾,緩緩撥開他的手機,四目交投,然後再隨著裝置的移動,把目光掃向其他觀眾;也正呼應Bourgeois的意念,在表演中透過與人群共享觀感(Sensibility)的經驗,去除媒體的阻礙及瑣事的紛擾, 直視彼此,原始地連結內心,即共同關注及感受當下發生的種種。

In this performance, Bourgeois and his team first performed two pieces in the public space of a commercial building. Then they led the audience to the black box theatre and performed the other two pieces. Bourgeois felt that it was interesting to perform in the busy Quarry Bay, with a crowd moving like tremendous waves. Despite the rapid urban development and steps of people, we perceived the connection of the city with nature whose presence was so close that we could felt it in the heart of a multitude of buildings. I observed that he made use of this context of surrounding to draw the attention of passers-by who stopped and watched inadvertently. Marie also shared her experience. “We tried to get to know people around us during the performance. Today’s is a Saturday matinee. Sometimes, it was at noon or night. Audience and their condition varied in different times, during which they also had different observations in public areas and at the black box theatre. For us, the most important thing is not choreography, but our relationship with the audience, connecting both us and them together into the performance.” The performance prior to the interview fully embodied her belief. During the performance in the public space, Marie bended over to one viewer who was filming the performance with a mobile. She gently swept away his phone with her hands and looked at him into the eyes, then moved her gaze towards other viewers along with the movement of the installation. This was also what Bourgeois wanted to achieve, to share experience of sensibility with the crowds, to remove any disturbance of media and nuisance, to look into each other’s eyes and connect right into their innermost being, to pay attention and perceive what happens at the moment collectively.

Yoann Bourgeois(左)及Marie Vaudin(右)在裝置上以肢體展現懸止 Yoann Bourgeois (left) and Marie Vaudin (right) make use of their bodies to show suspension on the installation; 照片由ArtisTree提供 Photo provided by ArtisTree


The vibrant fragility of theatre

當我們興奮地分享早前因在網上觀看的影片而認識他的時候,Bourgeois搔著腦表示始料不及,想不到很多香港觀眾原來早就透過他的影片認識並喜愛他,對此他也有一番想法:「常聽説我的作品在短片中看起來很出色⋯⋯ 我認為它不只是視覺效果,反之源於其脆弱性 (Fragility),而現場演出則可以更有效地傳達及捕捉這特質。」舞者運用偃側、墜下、跳躍、徐步、疾走使動作變化莫測,牽引著旁觀者的情感,感同身受舞者的一步一動。他指出這脆弱性並不是演出,而是當下的真實,並重申:「我們並不視自己為舞者去演出動作,而視自己為一個將會從樓梯上掉下來的人。」

When we shared with excitement for knowing him from videos online before the show, Bourgeois scratched his head, stunned by how the Hong Kong audience got to know him from his videos long ago and since liked him. He expressed his view, “I have always heard that my works look great in videos… But I think it is not only because of the visual effects, but the fragility from the works, which can be delivered and captured more effectively in live performances.” Dancers make use of leaning, falling, diving, walking, running to change their movements, direct audience’s emotions and let them feel the dancers’ every step and move. He pointed out that this fragility was not performed, but was the reality and truth in the here and now. He stressed that, “We do not see ourselves as dancers to perform these movements, but as a person who is about to fall from the stairs.”

Marie Vaudin以不倒翁的姿態展現懸止 Marie Vaudin shows suspension with a tumbler figure ; 照片由ArtisTree提供 Photo provided by ArtisTree

從以往的馬戲團訓練中,Bourgeois認識到物理力(Physical Forces)和對應的動作選擇,他將其加以放大並實驗,他的作品亦由此而生。可是在他的作品裏,「我並沒採用馬戲團表演者高昂地站在舞台上方的姿態結束作品,而是伏於地上。因為我深信脆弱性具強大的力量去觸碰人們,而表演者缺欠這種力量。」

From his circus training in the past, Bourgeois came to understand physical forces and relative movement options. He focused on this practice and experimented with it, and derived his works from this process. In his work, “Dancers do not stand condescendingly like circus performers did above the stage to end the show, instead, they lie down on their chests, because I believe that fragility had an immense power to move people, and performers lacked such power."

流淌於懸止的當下 Flowing in the suspended present

Bourgeois認為作品的核心概念 —— 懸止點(Point of Suspension)並不容易解釋及總結,但他嘗試以以下的文字拉近我們與懸止點的距離。

Bourgeois thought that the core concept of the work – Point of Suspension, could not be easily illustrated and summarised. Yet, he tried to explain this concept with the words below.

「我決定將自己的生命奉獻給懸止點。我始終堅信,在流逝的時間以外還有某種存在,但這種存在並非永恆,而是對立的『絕對當下』(Absolute Present)。在這絕對當下中,在這確切的時刻中,我感受到某種停頓,又或依然的流淌 ⋯⋯ 不停的嘗試只令我們越來越趨近「懸止點」,但我們從未到達,也無法實現,有如儒道思想中的『無為』。在奧克語(Occitan)裏,我們不知如何把這詞翻譯成主動或被動屬性,所以我們索性不把它不歸向任何一方,由它既主動又被動,或既不主動又不被動。容讓必須發生的事情發生。」

“I decided to dedicate my life to the Point of Suspension. After all, I firmly believe that something exists apart from the passage of time. However, this existence is not immortality, but contrarily, the ‘Absolute Present’. In this Absolute Present, in this exact moment, I can feel that something stops, or perhaps still flows… Endless attempts get us closer to the ‘Point of Suspension’, yet we never arrive, nor ever achieve it, just like the 'Wu Wei' in Confucianism and Taoism. In Occitan, we have no translation of the term as active or passive, so we do not classify it into any of the two. Let it be active and passive, or, not active nor passive. Allow what must happen to happen.”

Yoann Bourgeois有如西西弗斯般在裝置上不斷向上 Yoann Bourgeois keeps going up like Sisyphus on his installation; 照片由ArtisTree提供 Photo provided by ArtisTree


Letting the body listen to nature

問及Bourgeois創作的生成及編舞的靈感,他相信:「 儘管必須成功才能實現作品,但是首先,我們仍需要嘗試 。試著去發掘對當今世界至關重要的主題,然後讓自己沉浸於這議題。對我而言,我希望透過作品引起大家對自然動力及空間互動的好奇。」

When asked about the inspiration of his works and choreography, Bourgeois believed “Although success is necessary to make things happen, we still need to try in the first place. Try to discover the most important themes in the world and immerse yourself in them. For me, I hope my works can evoke interest in natural forces and interaction of spaces”

他的作品全都涉及與裝置的互動,而他亦分享自己的創作往往先製作裝置,然後再發展作品。「我們首先製造實驗性的裝置, 當中每個裝置都有不同的作用力,而我們的目標是克服這些力量。創作動作的過程往往不是由我或Marie 去設計,而是親身步進裝置,然後傾聽和感受,容許動作流過我們身體而生成出現,讓動作移動我們。 由於是全新實驗體,所以我們每次都不知道互動的結果如何,會有什麼發生。每個新裝置都會在我們身上產生新的能力和技能,我們便學會與其共處。」可見,這創作手法跟他不相信平衡與失衡為對立或分離的概念息息相關。他更言:「這種編舞方式亦正正體現了我們對生活的態度 – 不把我們與大自然分離或孤立,而是互相融入。」

His works all involved interaction with installations. He also shared that he has always created installations before creating the works. “We first create experimental installations which contain different types of force. Our goal is to overcome these forces. In the process of composition, neither I nor Marie design movements. We experience with the installations by ourselves, listen and feel them. Then we allow movements to come naturally through our body and move us. Every experiment is a whole new experience. We do not know what our interaction will end up and what will happen. Every new installation creates new abilities and skills on us. We learn to get along with the new gain.” This approach in composition is relevant to his belief that balance and off-balance are neither antithetic nor separate. He also believed that, “This way of working on choreography embodies our attitude to life – not to separate or isolate us from nature, but to integrate inclusively with each other.”

Yoann Bourgeois(左)及Marie Vaudin(右)在裝置上以肢體展現懸止 Yoann Bourgeois (left) and Marie Vaudin (right) make use of their bodies to show suspension on the installation; 照片由ArtisTree提供 Photo provided by ArtisTree

求樂若飢 Stay Hungry and Playful


At the end of the interview, we brought up a fun fact that the attentive audience in his performance resembled Asian students, they were all obedient children. Bourgeois laughed, “Rather than being good or bad, we should learn how to be a good player and enjoy the fun of playing.” He was surprised and touched to know that there was quite a lot of viewers who flew all the way to Hong Kong to watch his performance, which never happened to him in France.



訪談開初我們止不住心情激動,道謝說:「感謝你們給香港帶來如此美麗的演出」,道別的時刻仍心裡波瀾仍未平復。聽著Bourgeois分享詩意滿滿的哲學,令我想起米蘭.昆德拉書中所言「幸福是對重複的渴求」(Happiness is the longing for repetition),而對 「懸止點」的畢生追求大概就是Bourgeois幸福。這文章本應由鄧暢為執筆,他不幸有事未能處理,亦正好給我機會在我擔當《舞蹈手札》編輯的最後一期向讀者們分享文字,好好道別。而這番交談正好提示我們在混亂的時刻及繁忙的生活中,要好好關懷及抓住當下。

Excited to see Bourgeois, we could not manage our urge to thank him at the beginning of our conversation, “Thank you for bringing us such a beautiful show!” When we were bidding farewell with him and Marie, we still could not recompose from our excitement. Listening to Bourgeois sharing his poetic and philosophical ideas, I recalled Milan Kundera once said “Happiness is the longing for repetition” in his book. The lifelong pursuit of the “Point of Suspension” to Bourgeois is perhaps the “happiness”. This cover story should have been written by Acty Tang initially. Unfortunately, he had to deal with personal matters and had to give up on the story with no other choices. It was the last time that I oversaw dance journal/hk as its editor. It gave me the chance to share my words with readers and bid farewell. The conversation with Bourgeois and Marie was also a reminder that in time of unrest and in the hustle and bustle of everyday life, we should care about each other and focus on the here and now.

Yoann Bourgeois(左)及Marie Vaudin(右)在裝置上以肢體展現懸止 Yoann Bourgeois (left) and Marie Vaudin (right) make use of their bodies to show suspension on the installation; 照片由ArtisTree提供 Photo provided by ArtisTree


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