[中][ENG]楊雲濤：不忘赤子之心 The Child in You, Yang Yuntao
訪問Interview : 尉瑋 Wei Wei 拍攝及剪接Video shooting and editing: 余健衡 Ifan Yu
太極指導 Tai Chi Instructor: 夏雪 Xia Xue (香港太極青年團副主席 Vice-Chairlady of Hong Kong Taichi Youth Association) 鳴謝香港舞蹈團提供相片 Special thanks to Hong Kong Dance Company providing photos
現任香港舞蹈團藝術總監的楊雲濤，現在最強調的，是創作時直視自己的赤誠之心。在年少的求學歲月中，他也曾對舞蹈不那麼確定，對自己心生懷疑；而在每一次打開視野、重塑觀念後又再整頓出發。藝術總歸是不斷求索的過程，向外，也向內。一路走來，楊雲濤自言是行動派，無論是過去為自己定位，還是現在為舞團探索發展方向，他一直尋找那個位置，找到了，就話不多說，先做起來。
Yang Yuntao, the Artistic Director of the Hong Kong Dance Company (HKDC), stresses the importance of facing our inner child during the creative process. While he was a student, there were times Yang was uncertain about dance and questioned his ability. But, he always recovered from those bouts of self-doubt and carried on afterward with a broadened horizon and newly formed ideas. After all, art is a ceaseless exploration of the outer world and inner self. Yang regards himself as a man of action. From finding his niche in the past to searching for a new direction for development of the Company today, Yang has always sought perspective. Once he discovers it, he starts work without further ado.
殘酷的青春事業
Youthful Uncertainties
楊雲濤是雲南大理人，白族，11歲時就被北京中央民族大學（前中央民族學院）舞蹈系錄取，畢業後卻很快轉而加入了廣東現代舞團。雖然他曾在中國舞蹈荷花獎比賽及全國少數民族舞蹈比賽獲金獎，但他沒選擇去民族舞團，他這樣解釋，「跳民族舞的比我好的人太多了，沒得競爭嘛。」他笑。這回答也未免太老實了點。「每個人經歷不同，人要認清楚自己。」他淡淡地說。
Yang is from the Bai ethnic minority group and was born in Dali, Yunnan. When he was 11, he was admitted to the Dance School of Minzu University of China, and soon after graduation joined the Guangdong Modern Dance Company. Though he won Gold Awards in National Lotus Awards Competition and National Dance Competition for Ethnic Minorities, he didn’t try to get into a folk dance company because “There were plenty of people who could dance way better than I did and I just could not compete with them,” Yang laughs. This is a rather candid answer, yet he continues and gently says, “The experience of each person is unique. We need to have a clear picture of ourselves.”
楊雲濤的身上的確少見所謂藝術家的飄渺氣質，取而代之的是一種沉穩、務實，一點煙火氣。在他早年的作品《邊城》、《笑傲江湖》或是在城市當代舞蹈團演出的《蘭陵王》中，在編創上，你能感受到那種對規整結構與節奏的掌控；表演上則是粗礪的力量感不斷突進，甚至有時，有點用力過猛；然而到了去年的《紅樓．夢三闕》之〈白〉，他鬆下來，舉重若輕，反而更自在了。
Instead of so-called artistic elegance, Yang’s charm lies in his steadiness and pragmatic approach to life. In early productions, such as Border Town, The Smiling, Proud Wanderer, and his performance in City Contemporary Dance Company’s Warrior Lanling, you can feel his grasp of neat structure and rhythms in his choreography, and, in his performance, a raw power that constantly built, to an extent that sometimes it was a bit too vigorous. On the other hand, Yang has grown more at ease and the mood of his work has become more relaxed, notably in his performance in Blanc from Reveries of the Red Chamber last year.
楊雲濤於他編舞的《紅樓．夢三闕》之<白>中演出 Yang in Blanc in Reveries of the Red Chamber; 攝Photo: Stephen Yau
「舞蹈事業蠻矛盾的，它的限定就是和你的身體有關係，可是我們知道人的身體和人的觀念有個落差，當你身體最好的時候你的腦子是跟不上的，可是當你慢慢地開始熱愛這個事業，腦子開始明白舞蹈明白藝術的時候，你的身體就已經開始走下坡路了。舞蹈是一項青春的事業，很殘酷的青春的事業。」
“A dance career is quite contradictory. It’s medium is the body, but there is a gap between body and mind. Your mind lags behind when your body is at its peak. However, as you start to fall in love with your vocation and understand art and dance, your body begins to go downhill. Dance is a career for the young, which is exceptionally cruel.”
在最青春的時候，楊雲濤對舞蹈，特別是從小學習的民族民間舞，完全是懵懂的狀態。「十六、十七歲就從學校畢業，年齡太小，很多東西都不懂，怎麼就畢業了。」直到學了現代舞，年紀再長了兩年，才開始慢慢開竅。「因為現代舞是針對這裡（腦子），它和古典的審美也有很大的不同。古典的審美是要統一、標準化，比如芭蕾舞。而芭蕾不是人人能跳的，對你的身體條件有要求，無論你有多熱愛。現代舞不同，它提倡的是，只要你想，人人都可以進來，事實也證明了，放眼國際，很多的流派不用經過芭蕾的專業訓練。接觸了現代舞後，開啟了我對舞蹈的這個認知。」
In his youth, when he was at his peak, Yang was confused about dance, in particular folk dance, which he had been learning since he was small. “Graduating at the age of sixteen or seventeen, I was inept in many areas. How can one finish school at such a young age?” He feels as if he did not start to become educated until he grew a couple of years older and began to learn modern dance. “Since modern dance engages the mind, it is very different from classical aesthetic expressiveness. Classical aesthetics require uniformity and standardization, such as in ballet. No matter how passionate you are about ballet, not everyone can dance it well because of the demands on one’s physical facility. Modern dance is in complete contrast, as it advocates free entry as far as one wants to enter its world. Reality has also proven that many dance genres do not require professional ballet training to get on the international stage. Modern Dance has inspired me with this notion.”
打開觀念，楊雲濤並沒有從此背離原本的舞蹈經歷，一頭扎進現代舞的世界；反而在民族民間舞裡重新找到了一份自信。「我在學的時候根本認識不到它的好，甚至覺得自己跳得不好，那種感覺可能和我們的體制和教學有關，也許是從老師的眼神裡面，覺得自己跳得不好的。這些反而成了把我框死的觀念。」楊雲濤說，「當我接觸現代舞之後，我發現我可以跳得很好呀，為什麼之前要去這樣認定自己？標準幹嘛要在別人那裡？我更自在了，以前有點拘謹，甚至有點自卑。」
Yang did not abandon his previous dancing experience and turn to the world of modern dance; instead his broadened perspective has enabled him to become confident in folk dance. “I did not know its merits when I learnt folk dance; what was more, I thought I was clumsy at dancing it. This feeling may be related to our institution and education. Perhaps from the eyes of the teacher, I thought I was a poor student, and this inhibited me.” Yang says, “After learning modern dance, I figured out that I too am a good dancer. Why did I think of myself that way? Why did I let other people gauge my ability? I was a bit reserved, even felt inferior, but now I am free.”
他說，也許正是因為這份自信帶出了他身上某種特質，才讓香港舞蹈團選上了他。2002年，楊雲濤正式加入香港舞蹈團成為首席舞蹈員，之後的十六年，通過舞蹈這一深愛的志業，與香港這座城市結下了不解緣。
According to Yang, the HKDC might have chosen him because of certain qualities brought on by this confidence. In 2002, he officially became principle dancer of the Company, intertwining his fate with Hong Kong over the following sixteen years with dance being his vocation.
楊雲濤（左）Yang (left); 圖片由香港舞蹈團提供Photo provided by HKDC
「我心裡一直有觀眾」
“The Audience is Always in My Heart”
2013年，楊雲濤出任香港舞蹈團藝術總監一職，在身體、年齡來到一個臨界點的時刻，完成人生另一大轉折，「從演員轉變成一個管理者。」
Yang was promoted to Artistic Director of the Company in 2013, at an age and time when his body was at a critical point. It was a crucial turning point in his life, as he “switched roles from performer to director”.
一直以來，香港舞蹈團以有主題、有故事的舞劇作為主要的演出形式，也培養了一批忠實的觀眾。楊雲濤承接了這一傳統，在他看來，香港舞蹈團肩負著以舞蹈形式來推廣中國文化的使命，而舞劇就是最好的方式。「文化以故事的形式存在，我們有那麼多的傳說，那麼多的典故。」他說，「舞蹈不是一個單獨存在的東西，而更多的是為了承載某種情感，獲得某種意境，這也相對地拓寬了舞蹈的載體。不是說藝術的形式不能夠純粹，這是兩個概念，只是我更擅長的，或者更能接受的是一些交融、交匯的東西。」要與觀眾交流，不能像面對行內的專業人士那樣，高高在雲端談論觀念與技法，「而要思考怎麼用舞蹈去表現一種舞蹈之外的東西，我們不能拒人千里之外呀。所以更感興趣的是生活、生命，這種東西大家是可以交流的，只不過用舞蹈的語言來講。」
HKDC has focused on themed and story-based dance dramas for its main productions, amassing a loyal audience. Yang has respected this tradition, as the Company’s mission is to promote Chinese culture through dancing, and he believes that dance drama is the best way. “Stories carry culture, and we have such a myriad of legends and history.” Yang points out, “Dance is not independent. It carries certain emotions to acquire certain imageries, relatively broadening the carriers of dance. I am not suggesting that the forms of art cannot be pure, which is a different concept. Just because I am better at, or more inclined to, blending.” To communicate with the audience, we cannot get on our high horse and simply talk about concepts and techniques as if audiences are professionals. “We have to think about how to utilize dancing to present other elements and concepts, as it is wrong for us to exclude our audience. Therefore, I am more interested in topics related to living and life, with which we all can share in the language of dance.”
舞劇能讓觀眾更容易地感受到舞蹈的美。楊雲濤說，若是多年後觀眾仍能回味當年的某場演出，覺得那一分情境光彩非舞蹈而難以表現，那便已是將舞蹈植入了他心中了。只是，這種「植入」也是有技巧的。近年來，楊雲濤逐漸在作品中加入更多的個人藝術選擇。《蘭亭．祭姪》、《倩女．幽魂》、《中華英雄》、《白蛇》……故事講述和場景描繪逐漸跳脫出線型的推展和具體細節的描摹，而多了意境的傳達和情感的細緻刻畫，更詩意，更微妙，也更抽像。
Dance drama can let audiences perceive the beauty of dance more easily. If the audience can still reminisce about a performance after many years and think that the splendor of an idea can only be reflected via dancing, to Yang, he has already successfully embedded dance in their hearts. Even so, this ‘embedding’ requires technique. In recent years, Yang has added personal art choices bit by bit into his productions; for instance, Spring Ritual．Eulogy, L’Amour Immortel, Chinese Hero: A Lone Exile, and Lady White of West Lake. The storyline and depiction gradually deviate from a linear progression and detailed portrayal, better conveying the imagery and meticulously representing the emotions, which is much more poetic, delicate, and abstract.
楊在排練時的情況Yang during rehearsal. 圖片由香港舞蹈團提供Photo provided by HKDC.
會擔心原本的觀眾難以接受嗎？「特別擔心，天天都在困擾著我。」他笑，「我是非常在意的。我從來都不把自己當成是一個純粹的藝術工作者，或者是藝術家。但是我覺得我至少是真誠的，所以我心裡面一直有觀眾。香港的觀眾在意什麼？瞭解什麼？我們的工作就是要交流。我擅長的是把我最真誠的東西、看法放到我的作品裡面；我的目標不是要教會觀眾什麼，而是僅僅希望大家看了以後能有感受。當我要說的那件事情越來越個人，越來越小心的時候，我是很擔心的。但到最終的那個點，還是逃不過『真』這件事情。雖然有時真會讓人難以接受，但你不會因此而不要真實。」
Does Yang worry about audience disapproval? “I am extremely worried. It bothers me every day,” he chuckles, and continues, saying, “I care about the audience very much. I have never regarded myself purely as an art practitioner or an artist, but I think I am at least sincere and honest, and always bear the audience in mind. I especially pay attention to what local audiences care about and understand. What we do is just sharing. I excel at putting my most authentic thoughts into my productions. I do not aim at teaching the audience; I just want people to feel something after viewing. When my creative work becomes more and more personal, I need to be careful, I am really anxious. But getting back to basics, ‘truth’ is still the key. Although sometimes it is hard for people to accept the truth, you cannot therefore ignore it.”
楊雲濤說，自己一直在慢慢調適。對於那些覺得作品已不再為他們服務，或者符合胃口的觀眾，他唯有誠摯地說聲「抱歉」。「希望他們會了解說我們想要給的東西，也許不能說是最好的最頂級的最棒的，但能保障是當下比較真誠的。」
Yang says that he has been slowly adapting. To those audiences who think that his works no longer serve their interests or match their taste, Yang offers a sincere apology. “I hope they can understand what we intend to present. It may not be the best and most incredible, but at least it can be guaranteed to be genuine.”
楊雲濤作品《倩女．幽魂》（與謝茵聯合編舞）
Yang’s L’Amour Immortel (associate choreographer: Xie Yin);
攝Photo: Keith Chiu
楊雲濤作品《白蛇》（與謝茵聯合編舞）
Yang’s Lady White of West Lake (associate choreographer: Xie Yin); 攝 Photo: S2 Production
在香港做中國舞
Producing Chinese Dance in Hong Kong
作為藝術總監，楊雲濤希望強調舞團的年輕與活力。「我特別不習慣大家覺得中國舞就是保守的。」他說，「我覺得香港舞蹈團強調的應該是『香港』，它不是香港中國舞團，或者香港民族舞團，它就是香港舞蹈團。舞蹈首先是年輕的，香港也是充滿了活力，怎麼放到一起反而給人一種老派的感覺呢？我覺得它應該是一個非常年輕的概念，而這和它的風格和舞種是沒有什麼關係的。」
Being the Artistic Director, Yang hopes to highlight the youthfulness and vitality of the Company. “I am in particular not accustomed to the notion that Chinese dance is conservative. I think the stress of the HKDC is on ‘Hong Kong’. It is neither Hong Kong Chinese Dance Company nor Hong Kong Folk Dance Company; it is just Hong Kong Dance Company. Dance is first of all young; Hong Kong is also vibrant with energy. How come people find it old-fashioned when the two terms are put together? I think the Company is a remarkably youthful idea, which has nothing to do with its style and dance genres.”
近年來，香港舞蹈團從中國傳統文化和香港流行文化中汲取靈感，改編了數個經典文本，不論是《紅樓夢》、《聊齋誌異》、《白蛇傳》，還是馬榮成筆下的經典漫畫《風雲》、《中華英雄》，都在舞台上被提煉出新的趣味。「表現這些文本我們很有優勢，這些題材全和中國文化有關係。坦白說，如果不經過傳統舞的訓練，還應付不來呢。比如說香港本地的題材，《倩女幽魂》，就是改編自《聊齋誌異》，是一脈相承的。我們從小就受傳統舞訓練，來跳小倩和書生的形象，做回自己就足夠了。《風雲》雖然是漫畫，但也是很講中國東方的傳統文化，宿命啊，武術啊……我們很多的訓練都是從武術來，根本不用去強調，自然就會形成特點。《倩女幽魂》和《風雲》都是很有香港特色的文化現象，過往大家可能沒有太在意它們和我們的傳統文化之間的關係，但當我從另外一個角度來看時，會發現很有關係，很能夠啟發我們的舞蹈創作。」
HKDC has drawn inspiration from traditional Chinese culture and Hong Kong popular culture in recent years. From literature classics, such as Dream of the Red Chamber, Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio, and Legend of the White Snake, to familiar comics Fung Wan and Chinese Hero created by comic artist Ma Wing-shing, audiences can appreciate the works afresh with the Company’s adaptations. “We have an advantage in interpreting these texts, as they are all related to Chinese culture. Frankly speaking, we may not have been able to handle these classics without traditional dance training. Take, A Chinese Ghost Story, for example. It has a local popular cultural element and is adapted from Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio. Instructed with traditional dancing since we were young, we just need to be ourselves to present the image of Xiaoqian and the scholar. Even though Fung Wan is a comic, it also emphasizes conventional Chinese culture, such as fate and martial arts. This is similar to our training, which originated from martial arts to a great extent. We do not have to point it out and they [the audience] will form a distinct impression naturally. A Chinese Ghost Story and Fung Wan are prominent Hong Kong cultural phenomena. People may not have to pay attention to their relationship with our conventional cultures. Nonetheless, I find that they are highly-related when I review them from another perspective, which is exceptionally inspiring to our dance productions.
楊雲濤作品《觀自在》之〈初心〉 Yang’s In the beginning in Vipassana; 攝 Photo: WAI
在香港改編這些傳統題材和在內地做同樣題材的舞劇，必定很不一樣把？他想了想，「嗯，我在內地不可能做這些作品，連想都不會想。這就是香港呀，只有在香港，才讓我有這樣的衝動用現在這樣的方式去講這些故事。」
Adapting these classics in Hong Kong must be very different from producing dance drama even with the same theme in China, isn’t it? “Yes,” he replies after a moment’s thought, “I would not even think about this in China, let alone produce these works. This is Hong Kong. Only in Hong Kong will I have the impulse to tell those stories in this manner.”
對於楊雲濤而言，這種衝動，也是面對自己赤子之心的一種結果。「為什麼我反而沒有在香港做現代舞呢？因為我覺得沒有必要，我得真實面對自己——我談不上現代；我的年紀、我的接受度，我已經停留在某個時候了，不用去充當先鋒，達到最前沿。對我來說，表達藝術最重要的是真誠，首先對自己，然後對別人，這個『真』已經跨越了傳統和現代這事情。」
To Yang, this impulse is a result of the reflection on his inner child. “Why have I not created modern dance productions in Hong Kong? It is because I find it unnecessary. I have to face myself honestly - I am not really a contemporary person; I have stayed at a certain moment because of my age and degree of openness. I do not have to be the vanguard nor at the forefront in expressive arts. In my opinion, genuineness is the most pivotal in art. We can only face other people after introspection. To me, this ‘genuineness’ has already transcended tradition and modernity.”
不論在講述多麼久遠的民間傳說和傳統故事，香港都已經是他創作的底色，是不可剝離的血肉。對這個生活了十多年，成家、生根的地方，他反而覺得難以形容。「不識廬山真面目嘛。」他笑。因為文化、地域、身份的緣故，他與香港間總有種特別的距離感，也正因為距離產生美，他對香港一直保有美好的印象，他鄉勝故鄉。「我們搞創作的，是很奇怪的一群人，可能有一點點這種自虐傾向，就喜歡這種游離的感覺……它有時候還是對你有一點點抗拒，大家看你好像是個外鄉人，你自己也很難進入它的主流，但恰恰就是這種感覺，讓我對它保持一份吸引。 」
No matter how ancient folklore and stories are, Hong Kong has been an inextricable element in Yang’s productions. Yang finds it difficult to describe this place where he has lived for over a decade and become rooted. “One cannot see the forests for the trees,” he grins. Owning to cultural, regional, and identity differences, Yang has always found a special distance from Hong Kong. Yet precisely due to this distance, he has developed a good impression of Hong Kong and likes this city more than his hometown. “We creators are a group of weird people. It is even a bit masochistic to be fond of this drifting feeling… Sometimes people still view you as a foreigner, and it is difficult to enter the mainstream, but it is this feeling of resistance that has kept its attraction for me.”
「那種若隱若現的孤獨感，特別好，特別有感覺。」他點點頭。
“This looming sense of loneliness is just notably good in giving me a special feeling,” Yang nods.
