[中][Eng]訪問兩位 Hiphop舞者 Interview with Two Hiphop Dancers - Rock Fang and Kader Belmoktar
（英文原文刊於2013年的第十五冊第四期Originally published in dance journal/hk 15-4 in 2013. This is a translation of the Chinese article, not a transcript of the interview done in English)
Rock - 香港Studiodanz的Rock Fang（方家諾）
Kader - 法國Compagnie Käfig的Kader Belmoktar
在童年或少年時期，有什麼影響了你們的演出？
Rock：舞蹈錄像。當時我還是個孩子，在電視上看到了《Battle of the Year》，那是類似競賽形式的breaking。跟著的一年我開始嘗試跳，獨自學習。我們那時常在文化中心外與志同道合的人聚在一起跳舞。
方家諾Rock Fang
Kader：一個名為《H.I.P.H.O.P.》的電視節目。在節目中，舞者展示來自美國而在法國從未見過的新動作。人們可以從中學得那些動作。
你們最早的專業經驗是什麼？
Rock：那是2000年，在舊機場舉行的黎明大型現場演唱會。那時，我在學習hiphop，還嘗試許多不同形式的舞蹈。演出的編舞者想要編排hiphop，但那時的hiphop圈子並不像今天這樣蓬勃，便請了日本和其他國家的舞者加入。他們真的很棒，令我留下深刻印象。我那時的心願是專注於hiphop，這次經歷令我對這個心願感到安心。
Kader：Hiphop與日本舞踏之間的跨界計劃！那很困難，因為我只會跳hiphop。計劃的編舞者Sumako Koseki給我的指示是：「想像你是一塊石頭」、「發芽成長的種子」、「流淌的水」；而我問她的是：「何時以頭支撐身體轉動，何時跳躍？ 」 舞踏是內在的，而我卻全是外在的。我們隨著日本鼓樂赤腳跳舞。 Sumako幫助我開放思想去接受新的感知。
Kader Belmoktar
(c) https://ccncreteil.com/
在與其他類型舞蹈的跨界經驗中，你們學到了什麼？
Rock：很多事情。當我與其他類型的舞者一起工作時，我會嘗試了解他們如何感受音樂，以及身體對音樂的反應。以黃丹琦為例（與Rock共同創作了一齣雙人舞的香港踢踏舞者），他舞動時隨著音樂的流動性，遠超於我；而我則喜歡以動作擊打節拍。我意識到我們對音樂有著共同的敏感性，可以一起暢談，儘管我們的動作看起來是如此不同。
Kader：我們作很多外訪，有機會見到很多舞者，看看他們的風格。混合不同風格（非洲、當代、巴西戰舞、馬戲、芭蕾舞）使hiphop得以進化、長久，從而豐富其內容。我學習了巴西戰舞，也有上芭蕾舞課。它改變了我跳hiphop的方式。
作為進一步的體驗，你們對在舞台上與業餘愛好者或非舞者合作的感覺如何？
Rock：我教過很多業餘愛好者，而且樂在其中。根據我的經驗，每個人都可以跳舞，並做到優良的動作水平。技術不錯是重要，但感覺更是重要。
Kader：我不喜歡「non-danse」（non-danse是1990年代的一場編舞運動，採用很少或完全不使用傳統的舞蹈動作或技巧）。我曾經在里昂看過這樣的一場演出。當我看表演時，我喜歡看到一個作品，而不是任何人都能做到的東西。我看不到個中的意義。但是，如果有人找我去做一個non-danse的計劃，我會接受挑戰，因為我感到好奇。我想了解他們的立場，就像我想改變人們對hiphop的看法一樣。
有什麼規範是你們想挑戰的？
Rock：在一次與當代舞編舞家伍宇烈和一位香港芭蕾舞團舞者的實驗性表演中，我們對各種舞蹈風格的規範，以及其既定的準則提出了質疑：芭蕾舞者應該穿芭蕾舞鞋嗎？如果hiphop舞者以其他的音樂跳舞會是如何？
Kader：我們喜歡顛覆觀眾的期望。當聽到觀眾表示作品令他們驚訝時，我會感到高興，因為他們以為hiphop 在20年來是一直沒有變化的：舞者以頭支撐轉動、音樂節拍太吵耳、沒有故事等。我們希望展示到，任何方向的演變都是有可能的。有些hiphop舞者不喜歡這樣。他們認為這不是hiphop，儘管使用的是hiphop動作。可惜的是，有些人拒絕進化。 Hiphop的誕生，是作為一種激進的新舞蹈形式，我們認為新的變化必須繼續。
你們認為自己的的師父是誰？
Rock：他的名字叫High King。他教曉我跳舞的態度。我非常尊敬他。
Kader： Mourad Merzouki和Compagnie Käfig的其他成員。我從他們那裡學到了很多東西。
哪一個作品對你們來說是較為特別或困難的？
Rock：我在2012年香港藝術節上的第一場表演。因為我從未跳過多於30分鐘的演出。這個演出也需要我改變跳舞的方式，以發展出具有新想法的真正作品。我使用了國際象棋的概念，即人們在下棋或演奏爵士音樂時的思考方式。我和六位舞者都有參與編舞。踏進大型舞台，參與具規模的藝術節，這在香港hiphop舞蹈中仍然很少見。那是一項挑戰。我很高興人們喜歡我的作品，而跟著一年的香港藝術節我又再次獲邀。
Kader：最難的是《Yo Gee Ti》，因為要與其他舞者接觸，這對當年的我來說是件新鮮的事。在雙人舞中把拍檔抬起時，我感到尷尬。穿著非常貼身的連身衣（Unitard）跳舞，起初也使我感到不舒服。當我們開始的時候，我已經有兩年沒有在創作中跳舞。最難忘之旅是雅加達。我們到貧民窟去教小朋友，與他們分享了很多東西。Hiphop源自貧困地區，建基於友誼。某種程度上，它是屬於這些孩子的。
Yo Gee Ti (2012) by Mourad Merzouki,
Centre Chorégraphique National de Créteil et du Val-de-Marne
©Michel Cavalca
hiphop最初是發源於劇院以外的；對於將布景和燈光設計融合到你們的作品中，你們有什麼想法？
Rock：對我來說，這是很自然的。從大學時開始，我就與布景設計師和燈光設計師合作。不同的是，這次是為香港藝術節工作，所以比其他製作較為非商業化。技術人員有更多時間討論如何取得更好的效果。他們給了我很多想法。
Kader：我認為與既定舞蹈形式同場演出是對hiphop舞者的一種獎勵。在Mourad的舞團中，我們一直與燈光和布景設計師緊密合作。他們是創作過程的一部分。
你們身體上有感到什麼痛楚嗎？
Rock：下雨時的背痛和骨痛真的要命！但那不及我的激情。
Kader：我以前在水泥地面上學習做電視上的危險動作時受過傷。現在我35歲了，我感到很壯健，但我亦看到欠缺熱身的後果。今天，人們可以更快地，以對身體更安全的方法學習動作。
你們喜歡香港的什麼東西？
Rock：我愛香港，它是我的家鄉，它很棒。但是我希望有一改善之處：這裡實在難以在公眾地方跳舞，不像很多其他的國家，那會被容忍。在日本，我看到人們在地鐵站跳hiphop；在這裡，我想警察是不會容許這樣做的。
Kader：這是我第三次來到香港，我很喜歡它。首先，我喜愛這裡的人，他們善良而又有禪意。海灣中的水為這座充滿活力的城市帶來了許多寧靜。我們在這裡遇到過超級出色的舞者，我們在文化中心外一起訓練。他們真的很棒。文化中心的場地很好，觀眾亦是。另外，我喜歡這裡的購物和美食！
Rock - Rock Fang from Studiodanz, Hong Kong
Kader - Kader Belmoktar from Compagnie Käfig, France
What show influenced you in your childhood or teenage years?
Rock: It was dance videos. When I was a kid I saw Battle of the Year on TV, a kind of competition for breaking, then the first years I started to try and learn alone. We used to meet with the crew outside the Cultural Centre to dance.
Kader: A TV show called H.I.P.H.O.P. on which dancers were showing the new movements from the USA for the first time in France. One could learn the movements from that TV show.
What was your first professional experience?
Rock: It was for a big live concert by Leon Lai in 2000 at the old airport. At that time, I was learning hiphop and also trying many different forms of dance. The choreographer of this show was pushing for hiphop, while at that time the hiphop scene was not as developed as today. He invited dancers from Japan and other countries to join the project. They were really amazing. I was so impressed. This experience comforted my wish to focus on hiphop mainly.
Kader: A cross-border project between hiphop and Japanese buto! It was very difficult, because I was a pure hiphop dancer. The choreographer, Sumako Koseki, was giving me instructions like "imagine you are a stone", "a seed that grows", "water that flows" while I was asking her "when do I turn on my head, when do I jump?" Buto is internal, I was all external. We were dancing barefect, to Japanese drum music. Sumako helped me to open my mind to new perceptions.
What knowledge have you learned from cross-over experiences with other types of dance?
Rock: Many things. When I work with other kinds of dancers, I try to understand how they feel the music, how their bodies react to the music. For instance, with Wong Tan-ki (Hong Kong tap dancer who co-created a duet with Rock), when his body moves, he flows on the music a lot more than I do, whereas I like to hit on the beats. I realized that we share a common sensitivity to the music and that we can talk about that together, although our movements look so different.
Kader: We travelled a lot and had the chance to meet many dancers and see their styles. The mix of styles (African, contemporary, Capoiera （Capoeira?）, circus, ballet) enriches hiphop in a way that it evolves and can endure. I learned Capoiera and took ballet classes myself. It has changed my way to dance hiphop.
How has it been working with amateurs or non-dancers on stage as a further experience?
Rock: I teach a lot to amateurs and I love it. My experience is that everybody can dance and reach a good quality of movement. The technique is important, but the feeling is even more important.
Kader: I am not a fan of 'non-danse' (non-danse is a choreographic movement from the 1990s that uses less or no traditional dance movements or technique). I saw a show once in Lyon. When I see a show, I like to see the work, I do not like that anybody could do it. I do not see the point. But, if one offers me to work on a non-danse project, I would go for that challenge because I am curious. I would like to understand their position, just as I like to change people's perception of hiphop.
What is a norm that you like to challenge?
Rock: In an experimental show with contemporary choreographer Yuri Ng, a dancer from Hong Kong Ballet, and me, we were questioning the norms of each dance style and their established codes: should a ballet dancer wear ballet shoes? What if a hiphop dancer dances to different music?
Kader: We like to subvert audience expectations. I was happy when people from the audience said they had been surprised, because they thought hiphop had remained the same for 20 years: dancers turning on their heads, music beating too loud, no story, etc. We like to show that evolution in any direction is possible. Some hiphop dancers do not like it, they think it is not hiphop, although I use hiphop movements. It is too bad that some people refuse evolution. Hiphop was born as a radical new form of dance, we think that we have to continue creating new changes.
Who do you consider your master?
Rock: His name is High King. He taught me an attitude towards dance. I respect him a lot.
Kader: Mourad Merzouki and the other members of the Compagnie Käfig. I learnt so much from them.
Which piece has been special or more difficult for you?
Rock: My first show in the Arts Festival in 2012. Because I had never done a show lasting more than 30 minutes before. It required a change in my way of dancing, to develop a real piece with new ideas. I used the concept of chess, the way one thinks while playing chess, or playing jazz music. The choreography involved six dancers and myself. Moving to a big stage, working for an established festival is still rare for hiphop dance in Hong Kong. It was a challenge. I was very happy that people liked my work and that the Hong Kong Arts Festival invited me again the next year.
Kader: Yo Gee Ti was the most difficult, because contact with other dancers was something new. I was shy to lift my partner in duets. Dancing in very tight unitards was also uncomfortable in the beginning. And when we started I had not danced in a creation for two years. The most memorable tour was in Jakarta. We went to teach children in a shanty town. We shared a lot with the kids. Hiphop was born in poor areas, based on friendship. It belongs to these children in a way.
Yo Gee Ti (2012) by Mourad Merzouki,
Centre Chorégraphique National de Créteil et du Val-de-Marne
©Michel Cavalca
What are your thoughts about the integration of set and lighting designers in your work, whereas hiphop was first created outside theaters?
Rock: For me it is natural. I have worked with set designers and lighting designers since I was a student at the university. But what was different was to work for the Hong Kong Arts Festival, in the way that it is less commercial than other productions. The technicians have more time to talk about how to make better effects. They gave me a lot of ideas.
Kader: Dancing in the same venues as the established forms of dance is a reward for hiphop dancers, in my view. In Mourad's company, we have always been working closely with our lighting and set designers. They are part of the creative process.
What physical pain do you feel?
Rock: Back pain and bone pain kill me when it rains! But the passion is stronger.
Kader: I learned on concrete floors reproducing dangerous movements that I had seen on TV, injuring myself. Now that I am 35 years old, I feel strong, but I sec the consequences of not warming up. Nowadays, one can learn the movements much faster and in a much safer way for the body.
What do you like in Hong Kong?
Rock: I love Hong Kong, it is my hometown, it is great. One thing that I would like to change though is that it is not really possible to dance in the public spaces. Unlike many countries where it is tolerated. In Japan I saw people dancing hiphop in the MTR stations. Here I guess the police would not let one do that.
Kader: It is my third time in Hong Kong and I love it. First I love the people, they are nice and Zen. The water from the bay brings a lot of peace in this vibrant city. We have met super good dancers here, we have trained together outside the Cultural Centre, they were really good. The venue at the Cultural Centre is great and the audience also. Plus, I love the shopping and the food!
客席編輯Guest Editor: 劉秀群Cathy Lau Sau Kwan ｜ 翻譯Translation：施德安 Cecil Sze
